So I Said... What's Your Image of God? | S2. Ep.9

So I Said Pod is back with another thought-provoking episode! Join Dylan Sellers and Alyissa Sagoes as they delve into their unique experiences with spirituality, discussing the impact of cultural images of God and the absence of a specific gendered concept. They explore the rise of mega-churches, the power of feminine energy, and the complex nature of God's identity. Get ready for a captivating conversation that challenges conventional beliefs.

Transcript

Dylan Sellers: 0:00

So I said we back and I'm continuing in this series with my girl Alyissa jacket on. Yeah, cuz we got a little chilly. Yeah, literally a little chilly. And that's okay. That's okay. So like the reason that like, I think that you that we decided to do this kind of like series together is because you asked really good questions. It always makes me think can like be on my toes. And so like, I'm I'm gonna let you carry this conversation like I don't really? I don't really have a thought yet, but I'm sure you are going to provoke one because you're good at that.

Alyissa Sagoes: 0:37

Yeah, I do that naturally. Thank you for seeing me. First of all, yeah, they're second off. Um, yeah, I kind of wanted to touch back on our previous conversation that was X number of days ago, because my concept of time is also skewed. Yeah, um, what else? Oh, okay, cool. We were talking about God, and the image that we were given of God, yeah, the persona that we were given of God as a child, and how that carried into our beliefs, our worship and how it translates now, because for me, I've and I've told you this before, I was told Jesus and God were white men. Image, yeah, the image was a Caucasian man. And I could never connect to it. And that heavily affected my prayer and how I spoke to this higher being, because I didn't feel as supported as I was told, I should feel. And then you said that you actually weren't given an image worship and I thought that was cool. So can you tell the people

Dylan Sellers: 2:02

start there? So that's a that's an interesting thing. Because like, I I remember, as far back as I can remember, I remember being a believer, right? Like, there are photos and like video of me like doing announcements, giving speeches, like five Yeah, like five, like five year old Dylan in like, bobblehead dylan and like, my face looks exactly the same. My head is probably the same size. My body is just like, tiny.

Unknown: 2:35

So okay, so before you can see you, at some point, can we drop in like a photo?

Dylan Sellers: 2:42

I'm gonna need you to find cash, I'm gonna have to find a photo, I'm sure I'm sure my mother has a photo that like is embarrassing enough to get some traction.

Alyissa Sagoes: 2:54

Because now you have to do it. Expect

Dylan Sellers: 2:57

to see it? Yeah, they're gonna expect this. So like, God wasn't a wasn't a physical concept for me. Right? And so you know how like the thing about like, you know, grandma's having like this picture of like, white Jesus, and maybe JFK. Right, like, on the wall next to each other. White Jesus said, Martin Luther King, you know, it was that that wasn't my life, you know that. And, like, for context, it probably should have been, right? Because like the women, my grandmother's in my life are actually like, my great grandmother's, right. So they were a part of that generation who would have had those things? Yeah. But didn't.

Alyissa Sagoes: 3:43

Why did they ever What's your?

Dylan Sellers: 3:45

I don't know. I never asked What's your theory? Listen, you know, I got theories about my family. Right, pick one. I got theories I got that makes the most sense. I think it's because like, my family is like blackity Black. Yeah, they are. Right. So like, my great grandmother, grandma, Charlotte was daughter of an elk. Right? Like they were in the elk. So like the Elks is a big deal on that part of our family. And like that's blackity Black. You don't I'm saying like it's blackity Black. And so like, you know, image of white Jesus wasn't a thing, right? Like it wasn't the thing that they were that they was flying with. You don't I'm saying? So like, and like the churches that I grew up in? I don't know. Like I was taught that God was spirit. Right. And so like that, it wasn't it wasn't actually a good idea to have an image. Right? It's what I was taught and so like when you were saying like, what do you see when you pray? Yeah. It sounds weird to say nothing but like, I wish I had that. nothing good to say like it's not a there isn't an image that comes to mind. Yeah. And after reflecting on your question, like I thought about, like, in college, I tried to conjure an image, but it was like, it was comical. So it didn't work for me. Right? Like, I was thinking like flowy, like, down almost like you would think I was trying, you know what I'm saying? Because, like, I was trying to connect with God differently when I was in college, right. And it just, it didn't work for me. And so, you know, I went on exploring and kind of left that part out. But like, as far as like, a, like, I wasn't taught to, like, have an image. And so, and then, like, when I was like, 15, I ended up a mega church. So like, major mega church culture, moved away from any images or iconography at all, really. And so like, you were hard pressed to find a cross. You know what I'm saying? So like, even like it was a church, no mistaking that there was a church. But it was difficult to find a cross anywhere really. Like you didn't see images of crosses until like resurrection weekend or Holy Week. You don't I'm saying it wasn't a thing that was like, there wasn't one hanging behind the pastor while he was preaching. Or you have said like, they weren't in like the Sunday school classes. So I could not graffiti has never really been a part of like, how I understood the faith in that way.

Alyissa Sagoes: 6:41

Okay. First of all, I am jealous of your experience, because I feel like you felt a more like, all around support. Yeah, versus like, maybe in my experience, where I was like, I don't know that why, man.

Dylan Sellers: 7:02

I can't, I can't get jiggy with this.

Alyissa Sagoes: 7:05

Like, I'm praying for this. I,

Dylan Sellers: 7:08

I don't know that I would have until this moment that I would have articulated my faith experience that way. Right? That it was supported. But it was like, I can't, I can't deny that. Like I had tons of support of faith. Now. I got, there's some there's some downsides to that as well. Right? And so like, when you're in college, when you're young, it's almost like they're trying to turn you into a zealot. You don't I'm saying like, you're, they're trying to turn you into like this. In an effort to get you to be on fire for Christ, right, which is a good thing. In an effort to do that they make you intolerant of others.

Alyissa Sagoes: 7:59

And that's what just never vibrate with me. Yeah. So okay, so I thought about something as you were speaking about how the mega churches didn't give you an icon to

Dylan Sellers: 8:16

look to? Well, you know, you have to remember that like, and you don't have to remember but like, understand, right, like, remember this, because you may not remember this, but like, the rise of mega church was also the rise of local churches. Okay, I don't know that. So like, churches ditch the cross for a logo. And churches started to be branded. Right? Yeah. And so like, now you have churches that are like, you know, them by their brand. And they have a logo and like, sometimes that logo includes a cross, sometimes it doesn't. Okay, right. They were going for like the, the Nike check kind of thing, like the iconic things that if you see this, you're thinking of not really like the kingdom of God. But you're thinking of my church. Yeah. Right. And so it was an effort to try to get people to come to church, you know what I'm saying? So it became big business. It's not like that. There was iconography, but it was very specific to the church. Yeah, in particular. So you saw like, the logo was everywhere. Right? So like, you knew what the logo was?

Alyissa Sagoes: 9:30

Yeah. And I feel like that impacts a person who's like still trying to navigate their spiritual journey, because if I don't necessarily like the vibes of that church, I'm going to associate that as my worship, especially when I'm young. Yeah, you know, but what I wanted to ask though, was your family did not make this set image of this mirror person. Something for you to look to and say this is God. But I assume they associated God's energy with masculine energy. Like, oh, yeah, what is your? So Explain that. Explain that. I've heard a lot of sides that say, you know, what the Lord and company encompasses? Could be that a feminine, it fosters it grows it, it births it, rebirth it. Yeah. So what is what would you say to that?

Dylan Sellers: 10:37

What would I say to that? I have lots of thoughts around if it's not a man. Yeah. So like, what is it? What you were taught? Was that God is God. Right? Right. That God is neither male nor female. But then in practice, you always heard like, Father God, and he, and he, yeah, because in Scripture, it seems right. Right, like so. In following scripture, there's there is the masculine pronoun that is associated with God, right? And so, the feminine is associated with different aspects of God. Right? And so like, wisdom, is given a feminine pronoun in Scripture, right? And so like, those kinds of things are like given given a feminine pronoun, but it wasn't until later that I understood the the multifaceted pneus of God, when it became when it comes to energies. Does that make sense? So as I'm growing up, I grew up in a very, like, the church was very patriarchal. Yeah, right. The church is very patriarchal. The one that I grew up in, however, like, my personal life is very matriarchal. Yeah. Right. And so like, the women in my life really ran my life. Right? And it wasn't like, it wasn't one of those things where it's like, you know, by happenstance, no, no, it was very explicit. Like, my grandmother is the matriarch of my family, and everyone understands that, like, my grandfather understands that you don't understand that it was very much. So this dominant female energy that I grew up in and grew accustomed to. And so my association with God was more feminine than masculine. It wasn't until recently, that I even accepted any of like, the masculine things that came along with God. As something that I could trust. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. Because like, I mean, I didn't meet my father until I was 15. Right? So like this affected, how have you got, and like men in my life in general, because I always saw men as transient. And so connecting with God and a father figure kind of way. wasn't, wasn't something that I can hold on to. Right. And so it's very much so feminine, but like, and this is where like, I have thoughts that come in, right. And so like, as I get older, and I start studying, studying scripture, and I start hearing things like Paul talking about giving birth to people or giving birth to things, this annoys me, right? Because I listen, Paul is an important person in Scripture, right? But Paul is my brother, right? He is my much older brother, he is wise. He is written a bunch of beautiful things that has helped me with my faith, let's put that out there. But there are things that I disagree with how he contextualize it, right? Because giving birth is a very specific thing that is feminine. Like, no matter what I do, I cannot give birth or even understand what it feels like, you know what I'm saying? Like, a body is not made up for that. And so it's almost like it's almost offensive to be like, I'm giving birth to this thing, because then you're taking away from the feminine. Right, and trying to hold it all in the masculine.

Alyissa Sagoes: 14:29

And I think that is a big aspect of the disconnect. Like, I would agree with that. And when are my thoughts as a little young and when I would think about it even read, you know, Scriptures where, you know, it's talking about, you know, masculine figures sprouting this thing out of thin air and this this and that, like, you know, I always felt like there was not enough credit give into the feminine energy. And so I was interested in knowing where, where it kind of flowed within your beliefs? Because yeah,

Dylan Sellers: 15:08

so let me give you an you know, because we can wrap here because we're gonna be talking about that right? So let me let me kind of give you my my final, not my final thought. But the thought that I'm going to leave with, right with this. What we have to remember about God is that God is neither masculine nor feminine, but has created both, right. And so because God created both, when we look at the creation story in Genesis, he created the masculine Adam, to do a thing, right, but saw that he couldn't do this thing well alone. So he created feminine energy in the embodiment of what would later be known as Eve. But Eve was birthed in like this help. And I was just, I was just taught this by like, shout out to Fanny, who's a fantastic teacher, who taught us on Wednesday about this feminine energy that was that existed, and not as lower than in help. But as like the need of if I don't have this, then nothing else gets done. Right. And so God creates this energy and gives that energy, the ability to create and multiply, right? And so like, masculine energy can only work with what I see. feminine energy allows me to create that which I can't. Does that make sense? And so like, God saw fit to give both into different ways, and then like, make sure that they worked together. And so like, it is dangerous to trap God into one or the other. Yeah. Right. Like it is, it is equally wrong to call God a man, as it is to call God a woman. Right? Or to call God masculine as it is to call God feminine. God is God and has created those things and anything in between. That makes sense. Yep.

Alyissa Sagoes: 17:17

Yep. I agree with all of that. I agree with all that, and I think just add very quickly. Yeah, there is no one without the other. Yeah, we need both. And I think where it went left throughout history and you know, in throughout, you know, the utilization of religion to control cities and stuff like that is humans. Yeah. came in and they want to power control. Yeah. So yeah, just about unlearning that and prioritizing the both the need for both. You need

Dylan Sellers: 17:58

both masculine and feminine energy. And understand that all comes from God. And so yeah, yeah, I think that's all I have to say on that. Yeah. So yeah, we're out. So good.