So I Said... People Need to Feel More Shame | S2. Ep.10

So I Said Pod: Shame, Rebellion, and the Search for Acceptance. Join Alyissa Sagoes and Dylan Sellers as they explore the complexities of shame in society, its role in community accountability, and the rebellion against traditional norms. Delve into thought-provoking discussions on self-governance, the dangers of being your own god, and the importance of embracing a larger power. Get ready for witty banter and profound insights in this captivating episode!

Transcript

Alyissa Sagoes: 0:01

So I said, or he said, People need to feel more shame. People are not ashamed of themselves in their actions enough.

Dylan Sellers: 0:13

Shame is a useful emotion. Really it

Alyissa Sagoes: 0:17

is, but please, like, bandage that up and make it all pretty. It's gonna sound away.

Dylan Sellers: 0:24

Well, to be fair, I want it to sound away. That's part of the point, right? Like, feel, feel shame, you know what I'm saying? And respond to the shame. Shame is a useful emotion in community. Right? It keeps us from hitting each other. You don't, I'm saying like, shame is supposed to be the thing that like allows us to stay in line, stay in community and hold oneself accountable to the culture of set of community, right? Yeah. So people aren't like hitting you for offending them. You know what I'm saying? Like, you should feel shame for what you're doing. Yeah. So stop doing it. Yeah, you don't I'm saying? And so we live in a society currently, where like, there is no shame. Oh, my God, I don't think people are ashamed of anything. Right? It kind of goes to my point of like, nobody feels like anything is sacred or holy. Right. So like, everything is common. Everything's up for grabs, you know what I'm saying? So like, when the, with that idea takes hold shame, there is there is no space for shame, right? Because what are you being accountable to? Right, if you are only accountable to you, and nothing is sacred, unless you say a sacred and even if you say it's sacred? I could say that it's not? Do you know what I'm saying? And then like, there's nothing to stop me from treating it like it's common. Yeah. So there is no shame.

Unknown: 1:53

I. So I agree. Okay, you. I think that maybe this is just a theory, that lack of shame that we are experiencing now. Could be or could have stem from an act of like, rebellion of previously, previously feeling shamed for everything. Yeah, we do. Like, I'm not going to take it back to the dehydration. Roman Empire. But there was a lot of things set in place by the community. And these, these the highest leaders of Said communities, and what they said as shameful, you know, and then the city kind of fell in line, the communities kind of fell in line, but it didn't leave enough space for a human error and be like, we all take a note from this guy, like, you know, like, he kind of he's on, he's on his power trip stuff inside. We're lucky. Yeah. So I think maybe now, you know, could it be you like, could it be? Could it be displayed in a different way? Absolutely. Yeah. But I think maybe the lack of shame these days, is an act of rebellion, like, I was searching for acceptance, in my personhood, just validate me for being me, like, you know, like, Why do I have to go to hell for being this or that? I'm, so I'm gonna be nothing. I'm gonna I'm not gonna conform to what you think, why do I have to go to hell? Why is that? My, you said it, right. Yeah. And so I'm right. But there's,

Dylan Sellers: 3:50

like, Who are you to meet a real

Alyissa Sagoes: 3:55

person that because you started off by saying that, you know, shame within the community is a useful, like, you need to feel shame. You know, when you do something that, you know, deviates from how the community should act, the community has to be in a healthy state to, like, facilitate that correctly. And I've noticed that have not

Dylan Sellers: 4:18

that's fair. Right. But I'm with you. Like, you're not you're not wrong, you cook it right now, even though say like, You're not wrong. I think that I invite into that into that stew that you're that you're that you cook and when you say that, I want to know a couple. Yeah. If you destroy community, right, then there is nothing there. Yeah, you see them saying so like, because we are very individualistic as people currently, we don't want to be held accountable to community. Yeah, so like, community is as healthy as its people. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so like, culture is as healthy as as people. And none of us will ever be completely healthy. Yeah. What shame is, is the is the thing that allows for accountability and community, because I don't really have any other recourse, but shame. And if you don't have shame, then there's no telling, like, you could do whatever you want. Right? And that's part of the attraction to not having shame. Right? Yeah. Is to be able to do literally, whatever you want.

Alyissa Sagoes: 5:42

Okay. Agreed. So, where would you where? Where is shame sourced from? Is it dependent on others and how they feel? Or because one could be ashamed of themselves? Obviously, you know, but even that feeling comes from where you were shame? Where should shame be sourced? from, like, culture? Right? So it so it would have to be dependent on other people?

Dylan Sellers: 6:20

Yeah, well, everything is right. Right. And so like, the community in which you attach yourself to, has a culture, right. And that culture is, is developed over time, shared experiences, like a shared history, and like, the respect of those things are important. And when you violate that respect, you should feel shame. Right? It is the way to keep the culture, the community together. For believers, that source is scripture. It is both scripture, history and culture. Right? Like, that's where that comes from. So when you are changing culture, the things that you are ashamed about will change. Right? Like those those things, our culture is dynamic, right, it is not stagnant. Part of the problem with the faith currently is that like, we want the faith in the culture that is attached to the faith to be stagnant when we serve a dynamic god. Yeah, right. You know what I'm saying? It's like, that's a problem. But let's take it out of the faith for a second, let's say we're talking about Black culture, right? Being a part of black culture has rules. When you violate those rules, right? Like when you go against those values that we've set in place, culturally, like as a group that we've agreed on, now, they're individuals and individuals are going to do it individuals do. But as a group, we agree slavery is bad. Right? Like, there isn't an argument about it. We don't talk about it. Like it's not a thing. Slavery was bad, and it had a detriment to our people. And we never want to see it happen again. Right. So when you violate that, ie, our brother Kanye, right? will say something like, slavery was a choice. And he gets this backlash. That is what's supposed to happen. Yeah. Right. Because it is dangerous for you to dismiss such an integral part of the culture. Like whether you the point that he was making, right is like the effects of slavery is a choice, how I view myself going forward is a choice, right? He didn't articulate that well. And that's fine. But you should get backlash. And you should feel shame about it, so that you can correct it. Right. But the problem is, the shame didn't come with it. And so then a schism is created in a culture, that now you have people who believe and are walking with this very dangerous idea to the integrity of the community. Right. So that's what happened when like, shame doesn't take hold. And there isn't a course correction for somebody who comes with a crazy idea. Right? Like, if that shame is not in taken place and you don't correct it. Now, you create a schism and people are following you on this. And you have damaged the integrity of the community. Right. Which is why like, again, shame is so necessary. Yeah. Has it been abused? Absolutely. There isn't anything that humans have that hasn't been abused. Right. But when you get rid of it altogether, you cannot have a functioning community. You just can't.

Alyissa Sagoes: 9:55

Yeah, I agree. And I think that goes back to you know, kind of what you You were saying offline, with people making themselves their own gods, and self governance. And, you know, and, you know, I? Could that be a cry for acceptance? Maybe?

Dylan Sellers: 10:19

Yeah, well, it's a cry for importance. Right? Right. For for relevance, right. And so like, that's something that like black folk, my culture my brothers and sisters, we deal with all the time, because it's like going back to your, your conversation, about like, the image that you saw when you saw God, right? Like the image that was given to you, of this all powerful being being white is a problem, right? And so like, my brothers and sisters are looking for ways to feel powerful, right, and the most powerful being I am aware of is God. And if you are giving me an image of God, that is that of my oppressor, in order as an act of rebellion, and as an act of as an act of being able to, like, survive, right? Like and thrive in my own culture. I need to be God. Right? Like, I need to take on this. Because there couldn't be, if I'm rocking with the image, or you're rocking with the image of my oppressor, I need something that's strong enough to combat that, to survive it. Right? And so like, I understand where that's coming from, but again, dangerous, right? Because what happens when your God gets tired, if you don't find God, to be outside of yourself dwelling in you, yes, through the power of Holy Spirit. But you don't see God as something that is outside of you. What happens when your God gets tired? What happens when your God gets sick? You don't know say what happens when your god like, make some mistake and find yourself is grievous human experience. Right? What happens? What happens then? Well, then, like, we can't lean on that right? Yeah, then I am trapped and at the mercy of the god of that oppress that of that oppressor, right. Instead of seeing God as larger than both the oppressor and the oppressed. Yeah, right. Like that is larger than both of that. That dwells in me that loves me that that can guide me, right. Like, I love me, that is above me. It has to be it has to be because like, I can't just lean on me, right? I'm going to die. Yeah, that is a fact. Right? Yeah. I cannot hold the image in my mind of my god dying. Right? Like it is. It is inconceivable to think, right? I was I was teaching about this last night, we were doing Bible study. And we were in John 13, where Jesus talking to His disciples getting to prepare for his stuff. But as I said, we're at the end of the chapter where Jesus tells Peter, before the call of the CRO, before the rooster crows three times, you're gonna deny that you even know me, right? And this is usually pointed to something about Peter being doubtful and stuff like that. Right? What I believe is also happening there is, Peter got the revelation, that Jesus was the Son of God. Right? He gets the revelation that he is the Messiah. He's the son of God. And he is watching the Son of God, the thing that he believes is his God be dismantled by the thing that has been oppressing him his entire life. The Roman government has been oppressing him, the Jewish leadership that he the Roman government had put in place in that way. And the Roman government itself has been oppressing Peter his entire life. And now this Messiah has come. And he is watching them destroy his God. And now these people are coming to him like this your king. Yeah, that's what they say. And so on. Right? They're like, weren't you walking with this guy like, aren't you? And like, he's startled. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're my God, and I'm looking at my God be destroyed. Yeah. So am I denying that I know him? Yeah. But I am also denied Everything that I know is a powerful moment that's happening to Peter there. Which is why it's so dangerous to be your own god. Yeah. Because you have been in situations where you're watching things destroy you. And you can't do anything about it.

Alyissa Sagoes: 15:20

Yeah, and the thing with that too because then that you know, one could argue that nothing is destroyed me you know I've completely dissociated from this human experience and just know anything could happen to me and I am you know, but I think even then you're not living the intended human experience Yeah, God had for you. Yeah, absolutely. Like you were not meant to assume all of this all of this responsibility and then to you know, kind of act like it's not happening

Dylan Sellers: 15:53

yeah, right yeah. Like to disassociate Yeah, I'm saying like that's a that's a problem to disassociate and this is exactly what Peter does right? Like if we go on in the story, he disassociate so much that he goes back to fishing bro like that's what happened to him like that's what happens he's like you know what I'm missing maybe this was all a dream I'm been tripping make tweaks me my boat I'm going back to fish you know say like what I know this is what I know like I'm not messing with your like maybe I was tripping is cool give me the boat I'm out you know what I'm saying? Like that's he does he legit dis associates because like could you imagine the level of grief that exists in that moment? Like yeah, what right and so like think about like our our brothers and sisters who who believe themselves to be God or believe that like black people are God right? Or black man is God what does that do to your psyche? Then when you see police gun them down in the street? You are watching your God be destroyed. Yeah. When you're watching like women. And I have some hotel hotel brothers who believe that like black woman is God. I hear you my brother but what do you do then? When you are watching your

Alyissa Sagoes: 17:16

god die? Be the most disrespected right

Dylan Sellers: 17:20

like you're watching it be dislike how do you how do you rationalize that you're your God has to be bigger than that. And I'm not suggesting that like black women are nothing no, I'm not suggesting that black men are nothing but to make them your God. Yeah. puts you in a place that like I can't like you know me like you can't. You can't get out of that grief. Yeah, there is no hope. Yeah, at that point. Yeah.

Alyissa Sagoes: 17:52

I agree.

Dylan Sellers: 17:53

Yeah. I don't know that I've ever talked about this. Like on on like, okay, you know, this is this this season two stuff. Do you have anything to add? Because I know that we gotta we gotta wrap this one. But like, I have nothing

Alyissa Sagoes: 18:08

to add. You touched on every point every question.

Dylan Sellers: 18:13

Bring it out. Bring it out. Welcome. Y'all are

Alyissa Sagoes: 18:17

welcome. Okay. took a hiatus. I don't know why he thought that was okay. Is this camera on? Is it Camera two? It's all camera. Okay. It's okay. Ladies and gentlemen.

Dylan Sellers: 18:31

Oh my gosh, praise God. All right. This is just so I see it. And I just did apparently. Thank you, Alyssa. We thank you.